Parenting
Lola Questions The Motive Of Discipline
1/2/2012 6:00:31 PM
Dear Dr. Archer,
A recent post on your blog about corporal punishment reminded me to ask your opinion on what I've recently heard about the current thinking on discipline. I was shocked to hear a popular talk show host/internist agree with this current theory.            

The way I understood the guest, to punish your child you should remove their toy, video game or whatever it is they value as punishment, but you only do it for no longer than 2-3 days because you don't want to do it long enough that the child learns to live without it, because then you will no longer be able to use that as a discipline tool!  

This thinking seems to be clearly a result of the trend to overcompense children, buying them everything they want, using toys and videos as a substitute babysitter, leaving you with only one card to play when you need to discipline. In this case, the entire parent/child exchange has become a materialistic one about acquiring things.          

I don't disagree that you remove things as discipline, but I thought the idea that you want to keep them dependent on them was just outrageous. Shouldn't you build some other currency with your child other than materialism? 

There's an old quote that the measure of a man is not what he can live with but what he can live without. The idea of entire generations being dependent on virtual realities instead of going outside and getting their hands in the dirt and climbing trees with friends, I just find kind of sad.            

The other aspect that bothered me is I don't see how it really does any good to remove one of the many computerized toys, phones, or games temporarily, while leaving the child all the rest of his many options to instead turn to.

It seems to me that it's not punishment unless you cut everything off temporarily, OR turn one big thing off permanently, and demand something more of them than to sit in their room and sulk afterwards.  

In my generation, this would have been the equivalent of telling me I couldn't watch TV for two days, but could read instead, which I enjoyed just as much, or telling me I couldn't ride my horse, but I could ride my motorcycle. 

I just don't see how this is going to accomplish anything. Making a child cut off all communications or all mindless pastimes and having him instead sweep up leaves, to me, seems a more effective method, and one which more closely bears relevance to the real world as an adult.          

But then again, I don't have children.  What do you think, Dr. Archer?
Lola

Dear Lola,
The purpose of withholding a valued object is to make that child think about the consequences that followed because of the negative behavior. This works great for a young child, not as well with an older one but it is still effective if done for the right reasons. 

I do believe that all punishment needs to be brief, not because the child will learn to live without the special toy/device/object but rather because the initial thought only takes place over a 2-3 day span and after that resentment or even hopelessness follows and this is counter-productive. 

As the child matures, I agree that taking this or that while a room full of other goodies is available as an alternative is not really a punishment. Taking away phone privileges hurts any teen, but removal of the phone AND computer is almost the end of the world. 

Again, the punishment should fit the crime and the idea is for the child to think and understand why what they did was wrong. Also, I think children should have set chores to do, anyway, so those chores should of course continue. 

You touched on something else, Lola. It's true that past generations spent time outside, riding bikes, climbing trees and getting hands dirty. You cannot do that in today's world.

It seems every day we hear of another child kidnapped while on their way to school, walking to a neighbor's, playing in their own front yard and even sleeping in their own bed. So, that is much more difficult today without parental supervision.


Of course, the best time to teach a child from right and wrong is when they are young and understand the word "no". This can be enforced by taking away a coveted toy. Learning early makes discipline in later years easy..... or at least easier. 

For those parents who just refuse to discipline little Johnny, read about the downside David discusses in "My Girlfriend Won't Discipline Her 21 Year Old Son"

And the adult who was abused as a child, may have trouble with any type of discipline for their own child as G describes in, "Because Of His Past Abuse, G Hesitates To Discipline His Children".

When it comes to discipline, it should always be in the spirit of learning right from wrong. It shouldn't be imposed in a fit of anger, but in the spirit of shaping your child to be the best adult possible. If done for the right reasons, whatever your thinking may be, you should achieve the desired results. 

The goal, in the end, is to raise a happy, secure, kind, conscientious, mature and well-balanced contributing member of society. Thanks for bringing up this important topic.
Dr. Archer
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Categories: Behavior Issues

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8 Comments
1/2/2012 7:44:16 PM
Thanks for your many thoughts on the subject. I especially agree that punishment should not be done in a fit of anger, and I think it more often than not is and can then be overdone. However, I do think it's ok to let a child see that you are upset and angry, or hurt, at their behavior and not to try to act emotionless, as long as you don't overdo it.

It's hard to sort out with the gadgets, because now the phone IS the computer, and the big computer is SKYPE and can also be used to make calls. It seems like you'd need to turn both off to accomplish anything. And there's no telling what all is out there I don't even know about!
1/5/2012 2:49:27 PM
This is an excellent case-study. As a child I was never punished, or had anything removed, as I never did anything bad. The contrary, I was begged to not study so much, but rather go and play with my friends. Studying was my first priority, even since primary school. And now I am so happy that I don't have any kids. No way would I be able or strong to discipline them! Well, one time, my headmaster at the school I was teaching, read my palm, in a funny way and told me what he saw: first that I will succeed but in a different carrer way than I imagine, that my husband will help me 'change' my carreer, and that I will have 2 boys, and that one of them will be famous. I said 'well I hope these boys won't be mine. Tell me more about the mother anyway, if she will be famous, not about the boys'. And he laughed :-)
1/7/2012 11:40:59 AM
I wanted to add one thought in response to your response that I failed to mention in a prior comment.

You were saying kids can no longer go outside, ride bikes, etc., safely in today's world. I believe this is a misconception. I don't believe the frequency of child molestation and abduction has exponentially increased (except in proportion to the increase in population in general) over the last few decades. It simply didn't used to be talked about or reported. In the '50s and '60s, normal people didn't even really know such a thing existed unless it had happened to them, and even then it wasn't discussed.

It is a fact that at least 85% of child molestations and child abductions are done by someone within the family or someone the parent is comfortable leaving the child alone with or in the care of. We have certainly seen that illustrated in a big way this year with the coaches toppling one after another in the news. There is a bigger risk letting your kid go to after school activities, church activities, over to their best friend's house, or leaving them alone with their father or stepfather than there is of a child getting pulled off a bike or snatched out of his front yard by a stranger, a much greater risk.

The risk for stranger abduction is actually very small. Even in the cases where it appears this may have happened, it is often traced back to someone the family knew. Part of the reason for that is because it's easier to abduct or molest if you already have had a chance to assess the child's vulnerability. It's pretty risky to pull a random one into your van and expect everything to go well, because not all kids are easy to control and manipulate.

The other reason crime experts believe parents are anxious to believe that they can keep their child safe simply by not letting them walk to school and by keeping them in after school activities and letting them go on play dates is because, let's face it, it's very inconvenient for them to believe otherwise. They need the support system these activities, spouses, friends, and extended family provide. They want to be able to drop off their 7-year-old at a friend's while they go do their shopping, they need to have the child in after-school activities so they can maintain a job, and many other reasons. So they choose to believe stranger abductions are the biggest danger and that they would know if someone was a bad person, and this is comparatively easier for them to deal with and it makes them feel better.

A friend of mine said to me she feels safe letting her child visit any family in her apartment complex because it's a gated community, as if being gated prevents child molesters from living there. In her mind, the whole idea was to keep "the dangerous strange" out, and her job was done. People are really naive. We've learned over and over that molesters and abductors usually look like anyone else and if anything, seem more friendly and competent, and certainly willing, to watch after children. They don't typically look or act like monsters, though there are always exceptions. Perhaps they don't look or act like monsters because they don't view themselves as monsters, as we've seen in the Sandusky scandal.

Of course, none of this changes the fact that most kids prefer to stay glued to their electronics these days, but I believe part of that is also a product of being kept in the house by their parents instead of learning the joys of playing in the yard and learning to use their own imaginations. I think it's a shame.
DDA
1/12/2012 7:50:42 AM
True, Lola. And I want to reiterate what you said -- children benefit from seeing all emotions. That said, they need to see how to handled anger appropriately, and all too many times when spanking/whipping a child, the emotions take over and the line is crossed.
DDA
1/12/2012 7:51:07 AM
Always humorous input, Marcia!
DDA
1/12/2012 7:52:28 AM
I still would rarley advise parents to allow their children out in the neighborhood unsupervised. Have you seen where the convicted child molesters live? There's an app for that, and they're right there in every neighborhood. And those are the ones that follow the rules and register. What about the ones that don't register or have never been caught? It’s a pity, but that is the world we now live in..
1/15/2012 4:37:48 PM
Yes, sadly I'm aware of how many sex offenders and child molesters are in every neighborhood. Most police departments put that up on their website, too, for anyone without an app. You just enter your zip code and then have the bejesus scared out of you. There are parameters that the registered child molesters must follow, one of those being they can't live very close to a school, so actually the kids walking to school should not run into at least a convicted one by walking past their house, though chances are there's one somewhere in that line of cars around the school who is dropping off his own kid. Different places have different laws about where they can live. In the news recently was a trailer park full of them, because some communities are so strict about it that they all end up crowded into one area, but more often they're simply not allowed close to schools.

As you say, there are many more who are not known offenders. I just contend that the way they operate is usually from the inside and that for every 1 who may troll in a car and try to randomly snatch a child, which often puts him at risk for being stopped by police, having a witness, coming under suspicion of neighbors and crime watch groups, or picking a kid they can't control, there are 100 who will instead buddy up to the single mother across the alley, magnanimously allow the neighbor kids to use their pool, watch the kid while she goes to the store, volunteer to supervise the next church car wash or campout, or, by far the most common way: prey on their own children, step-children, girlfriend's children, and those kids' friends who come to visit them.

I believe it's always been this way. There were a lot of creepy males around when I was growing up on the edge of town, and kids had to learn to watch out and just avoid certain people who didn't seem right. Kids would pass the word if they thought someone was creepy, or someone's father was weird, even if they didn't understand the implications. Of course, it's often (but not always) the kids who have problems at home who are the targets of predators, so they're probably not safe no matter where they are. Bottom line, every situation carries varying degrees of risk. Vigilance is imperative, but so is knowing the reality. This mindset that it's safer to have any neighbor, coach, or relative babysit your kid indoors than to let them play in their own front yard is what leads to the majority of molestations.

I still believe school intervention for troubled kids is the best answer we have to this problem, as it is with many others. Where ther'es smoke, ther'es fire. One day, I hope we somehow work a budget for mandatory family counseling into our social programs because it would help prevent crime on so many different levels.
1/16/2012 6:31:30 PM
Not intentional, but somehow yes, funny again..! I don't believe in palm readers, but since he was my headmaster, whatever he says, is a rule, so I had to give my hand to him for examination and a glimpse to the future...! He also 'saw' professional success coming my way after 40, which is the only reason I don't mind to be alive after this important birthday! :-)
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